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BlackBox

Discussion in 'Other Builds' started by Mark Carew, Feb 22, 2019.

  1. SeanD

    SeanD Well-Known
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    Do you know where to find what comes out of the cool connections on the Blackbox? Is it just like 5V signal or something?
     
  2. SeanD

    SeanD Well-Known
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    N
    Just saw the 24V and GND - nevermind :)
     
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  3. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    The IoT relay is sadly 110v only, so can't just use an adapter I'm afraid.

    For the 240v world there sadly isnt much "off the shelf" but if you do get a sparky involved, a 24v input, 240v rated contactor would work. You can fit a din rail contactor into a small 3 din wall box (;
     
  4. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    24v - its actually labeled right by the port (; just look over the blackbox hehe
     
  5. Batcrave

    Batcrave Journeyman
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    Didn't I say Peter would be along to clean up my mess? I knew that sounded too easy... Somehow I thought I remembered seeing a 120/240V switch on the side, but clearly it was a delusion brought on by an advanced case of notlookinitis.

    I suppose it's only fair. The rest of the world gets real power right at the tap, the IOT Relay is the least we deserve as a consolation prize over here in the United States of Cripplepower.

    Not that I'm bitter or anything.

    -Bats
    (they get 220V & metric standardization, and what do we get? Higher contagion counts? Amazon and [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]? someone was getting kickbacks when they made that deal)
     
  6. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    That's on the side of the Meanwell PSUs (;

    (; Yeah good luck, we love Kettles (;
     
  7. Alex Chambers

    Alex Chambers Master
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    We get amazon too (and an incompetent government)
    Alex
     
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  8. Rick 2.0

    Rick 2.0 OpenBuilds Team
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    Bats, where there is need, there is opportunity.
     
  9. Batcrave

    Batcrave Journeyman
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    As a service, sure (or disservice, depending on how you want to look at it)... But we get The Beast of Bezos itself living here *shudder*

    A few years ago I would've agreed with you... but today's world has given me new standards by which to judge incompetence.

    But while it feels good to commiserate, I think this place tends to be better when we leave our politics outside. So as difficult as I find it to do, I'm going to shut up now.

    (err... "this place" being Openbuilds... although I suspect an argument could be made for most other places, too)

    Yes! I now have the opportunity to rewire my basement for 240V and to rewire my brain for metric!

    -Bats
    (I suppose there's also the opportunity to sell a magic relay box to Australians... but I'm allergic to studying electrical codes, and their inspectors might send the dropbears after me)
     
  10. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    That's the problem, the IoT relay has all the right logos to make insurers happy, that's why its on the shelf
     
  11. David the swarfer

    David the swarfer OpenBuilds Team
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    different manufacturers = different color wires.

    for ANY stepper motor with 4 wires:
    turn the motor with your fingers, you will feel 'steps'
    connect any 2 wires together. turn it. if it gets much harder to turn and 'clicky', then that is one winding, make a note of the colours.
    if it is still the same as when no wires are connected, then that is not a winding, pick another wire and try that.
     
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  12. SeanD

    SeanD Well-Known
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    I was able to get a relay with 24v that allows switching for AU power. On a smaller setup with my 3D printer I have it normally closed and switched on by 5V signal. Smaller relay obviously though. Hopefully I can just get this setup the same way.
     

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  13. SeanD

    SeanD Well-Known
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    Not sure on the wiring for that relay, might just do it right and get a sparky in.
     
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  14. SeanD

    SeanD Well-Known
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    If I have the following setup, I understand the 2 coil connections run to the COOL pins on the Blackbox, but can I just run the hot wire of the power in one normally closed and out the other? Is there more to this than I had with my 5V 240V relay? Should I maybe just look at getting a buck converter to step down the 24V out of the COOL to 5V and set it up on a single open/closed relay that takes a 5V signal? Any help appreciated.
     

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  15. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    It's at this point, for legal and personal protection reasons, that I have to advise
    a) get a qualified electrician in and
    b) your questions above really tells me you have to get an electrician in. If you have to ask, you don't know :)
    c) that we terminate this line of discussion (we won't offer futher advice on wiring your relay, and will moderate out any conversations around it) Electricity can and regularly does kill. Lets not have this forum become exhibit A in the trial into someones death

    Furthermore
    Don't use a buck converter on a signal (buck = power supply) - Use the right tool for the job (a 24v relay)

    Both questions tell me you are out of depth man :) call the sparky!
     
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  16. SeanD

    SeanD Well-Known
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    Spoke to a sparky about it this afternoon. He said it was easy and I should be able to get help online. Might go speak to a better sparky :) Thanks for your help.
     
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  17. SeanD

    SeanD Well-Known
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    Is there another switching 5V out of the Blackbox? The buck was only suggest to use to get a 5V switch off the COOL. Then use that to power the coil. I won’t ask anything more than that. I don’t want someone else reading this wrong either and making bad choices based on it.
     
  18. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    The spindle PWM pin (M3S1000 = on, M5=off) is 5V, BUT can drive a load of 20mA only! (it just a logic signal) Must use an optocoupler/transistor/IotRelay/etc for loads (eg to trigger a relay)

    According to http://www.baileyproducts.com/files/87452402.pdf your 5v relay pulls 182mA for the coil, which will fry the pin (bye bye Blackbox). You also need a flyback diode (fast collapsing magnetic fields on turn off does what again according to faraday's law of electromagnetic induction? ) = also Bye Bye BlackBox

    A 10A load rating of your relay is the same as the onboard relay, and we don't recommend you use that for a spindle. Any guesses why? 8A inductive load for a router... What does induction do to power factor?

    Where's the fuse?

    Leave it to the pros, and just switch the router on and off by hand with the switch on it, till then :)
     
  19. SeanD

    SeanD Well-Known
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    I am just switching on and off the cooling system, not the spindle and everything else.
     
  20. SeanD

    SeanD Well-Known
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    My spindle is running off the tool head through to a VFD with help from people on here.. should I stop doing that? I thought the tool head and cool outputs from the Blackbox were for these things?
     
  21. SeanD

    SeanD Well-Known
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    What does the RELAY do? I read the documentation but still am not sure
     
  22. SeanD

    SeanD Well-Known
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    The 5V relay I had used in a previous project is attached. It didn’t blow up the Pi it’s attached to. Should I also stop using that?
     

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  23. DFarmer

    DFarmer New
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    Is the A0 input accessible? Also my board says v2.7 and it has different jumpers than the ones documented.
     
  24. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    That one is fine, it has an Optocoupler (its not just a relay, its a whole circuit)


    What is the cooling system? A 2500w vacuum cleaner (; or just a little 24v solenoid in the air/water line?

    Relevant to what they connect to: A vfd, or a IoT relay or some device that accepts logic signals, but NOT for the relay you posted here: BlackBox which doesnt have an optocoupler and draws 182mA according to its datasheet
     
  25. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    Can you elaborate on what that is? A0 as in Reset/Abort from gnea/grbl? (button inputs are not broken out, we prefer to control it from software)
     
  26. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    Primarilly added it for OpenBuilds BlackBox 4X Documentation
    But can be jumpered to Coolant or Spindle Enable outputs too (spindle enable as compile time option in Grbl can be used for VFDs that refuse to work right without a relay on DCM/FOR - there are less popular VFDs that keep on running even when the PWM is set to 0) or as a Coolant relay - we still advise not connecting mains, but lets use an example, say I have a 12v solenoid on my airline for a misting head on my MiniMill. As BlackBox's coolant output puts out 24v, and I want to use my 12v solenoid, I can wire a 12v psu, switched by the onboard relay, to the solenoid, with the jumper on M8/M9.
     
  27. SeanD

    SeanD Well-Known
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    Got a sparky in. He said all that was connected to the Blackbox in the relay I posted was the 24v coil and it just turns on and off when a 24v current is sent through it. After about an hour (at my expense) of debating with him and showing him this thread, he said the coil inside the relay had no contact with the current running through the COM and NO (normally open) circuit. He screwed down 2 wires to the screw terminals on the base that came off a standard plug that had nothing else but an Australia plug in and plug out and it started working straight away. I got him to check for any risk factors and sign off on it. He was angry at me in the end for wasting his time, I told him I was paying by the hour and he was a little happier. I am not sure if there is still a risk as I don't have enough knowledge to debate it either way. Just not sure if I now have a device that is going to destroy the Blackbox in a few months time or potentially kill someone. The sparky offered to send another electrician down to check his work, I still have this option but not sure if it is required. I have already checked over the phone with a 3rd sparky (not his guy) and they also said they don't understand where the problem would be as it sounds like it has been done correctly.
     
  28. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    You posted so many different pieces, its hard to tell:

    My "dont wire it that way" comments was directed at:
    where I said:

    So as long as you DID NOT use the SPINDLE PWM pin to switch the relay coil directly, then that is not applicable.

    If you did wire the Relay to the Coolant Output (which is 24v) then that's fine! But you were going in some kind of weird 5v direction for a while...
    So if you are using the 2 pin COOL (24v) output, it will run the coil in the relay fine. AC side is between you and your sparky

    :) and this thread will be my reference to why we stick to:
     
  29. SeanD

    SeanD Well-Known
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    Sorry for so many posts, I guess it got too confusing. I was only asking about the 5V if I was not able to use the 24V. My understanding of the wiring was correct. It was just a communication issue. This could be confusing for others too so for your own safety please follow Peter’s suggestions. Is there going to be a way down the track to post specific threads for questions or are they all staying here?
     

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